Curse

Kashrlyyk · May 20, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Short answer: the opinion of people that the Earth was flat IS wrong. Repeating something does not make it true.
...

I don´t agree. Opinions are per definition never wrong, the informations they are based on can be. Which is happening above. The information about earth is wrong, not the opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact.

Red Sand · May 21, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem though is that Anet makes plenty of updates that many feel are less important than making changes the game desperately needs.

Anet is a business. They are only going to make changes that are in the best interest of the company. If they make a change that you do not agree with, but the majority of players accept, then you have a choice: learn to live with it, or give up the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The only problem is when it is at the expense of people who liked the game better before the changes.

Who are in the minority and whose playstyle was contrary to desired behavior. Back to that choice thing again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

For me personally, I think this game was 10x better 2-3 years ago, and that isn't due to boredom. Most of the people I know who quit Guild Wars quit due to changes that they hated in the game rather than being bored of the game. That says A LOT.

Yet you have not quit and that says a lot too. Even if the game is 1/10th of how great it was 2-3 years ago, it's more than sufficient to keep you interested. How delightful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

How can an opinion be wrong? Anyways, of course I know what Anets focus and intentions are...it is clear as day. Their intention was to change the game (and in this case RA) completely, and they did the job. I don't think it is a good thing, but whether or not that is true is up for debate.

An opinion is neither right nor wrong. I'm not debating your opinion, just pointing out that it's only opinion, not fact. It's foolish for us to discuss holding on to opinions when faced with evidence to the contrary, but I'll play that game if you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

If I have the opinion that Guild Wars was better before certain changes, how can you prove it wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

Did it? Is there a legitimate way to prove that it paid off other than saying "oh I see more people in RA now"?

Until contradicted with better data, more people proves more interest. We can infer that since we see more people in RA, the changes had their desired effect. I'm sure that Anet has the real numbers, but in a nutshell, more interest is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

You then have to ask yourself: Even though the majority of people like it, is it good for the game? I say no to both.

If the majority of the people think it's a good thing to have a 25 mph speed limit in a school zone, and you don't like it because you think that it's too slow, does that make the 25 mph school zone any less good for the town? You can base your answer on what's best for you, or what's best for the community. That's where our disagreement lies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

I already said earlier that I know the majority probably like it. But does it mean the discussion is over simply because the majority say it is?

This discussion can go on until they shut this thread down, or shut the boards down. I like to talk about gaming about as much as I like playing them. I even believe that you feel the same way: these posts certainly take more time than waiting for an RA to finish.

Just an observation, but in the time that you have spent posting in defense of your opinion, you could have been playing a ton of RA's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I agree with Red Sand... Red makes solid points that are more akin to the reality of the dishonor system and why more people play RA now.

Excellent post! Your keen intelligence is only eclipsed by your obvious good looks!

DreamWind · May 21, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

If they make a change that you do not agree with, but the majority of players accept, then you have a choice: learn to live with it, or give up the game.

That basically sums up the entire argument against everything I'm saying. That is the only reason I started posting in this thread (because I thought some of the arguments were ridiculous). There is absolutely no data that shows that it is somehow better for the game. Hell, there is even no data that shows that the majority likes the changes.

Also the idea that the majority likes it, thus it makes it a better game is not valid if you ask me. What if Anet could turn Guild Wars into WoW? They could have all the success of that game with an exact clone of it. I'm guesing a lot of people here would hate the idea because they think WoW is an inferior game (including me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Yet you have not quit and that says a lot too. Even if the game is 1/10th of how great it was 2-3 years ago, it's more than sufficient to keep you interested. How delightful.

It keeps me interested to an extent. Not as much as it used to, but Guild Wars is still a good game that used to be a great game. That was not the point I was making though. The point was that 90% of the players I know who quit Guild Wars quit because of changes to the game, and not due to boredom. I don't think I've ever seen that before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

It's foolish for us to discuss holding on to opinions when faced with evidence to the contrary, but I'll play that game if you want.

I agree with you. The problem is there is no evidence to the contrary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Until contradicted with better data, more people proves more interest. We can infer that since we see more people in RA, the changes had their desired effect. I'm sure that Anet has the real numbers, but in a nutshell, more interest is better.

There are so many variables here. Let's say we see more people in RA now (which to be quite honest I am not sure is completely true but we'll assume it is true). That means there are LESS people in other areas. So it was technically WORSE for those areas of the game. What makes RA better than other areas? Another part is this: How we can we prove that gladiator points and dishonorable are good for RA? How can we prove it is good for ALL of PvP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

If the majority of the people think it's a good thing to have a 25 mph speed limit in a school zone, and you don't like it because you think that it's too slow, does that make the 25 mph school zone any less good for the town? You can base your answer on what's best for you, or what's best for the community. That's where our disagreement lies.

Your example isn't great. I could easily spin it around. To me it is more like the majority think that going 75mph in a school zone is better because it gets you through faster and because going faster is more "cool". Meanwhile the local community thinks 25mph is better because that is what worked for a long time, and because they think going 75mph is bad for the entire area.

So using my example, yes that is where our disagreement lies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

This discussion can go on until they shut this thread down, or shut the boards down. I like to talk about gaming about as much as I like playing them. I even believe that you feel the same way: these posts certainly take more time than waiting for an RA to finish.

Just an observation, but in the time that you have spent posting in defense of your opinion, you could have been playing a ton of RA's.

They have no point to shut the thread down like some people think. Some people just want to shut down threads because they don't like the topic or post that they are correct and then want the thread locked. The entire point of the board is to talk about Guild Wars, so their rants are worthless.

And yes I could have been playing RA, but as I said, I don't really like it as much anymore.

Itose · May 21, 2008, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Wanna know why im here? Waiting for my dishonorable to go..I got it because my computer lagged out in RA and ONE team member reported me..yes one, the rest were waiting..I fought in the battle, yet still I get the hex.

BlackSephir · May 21, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Too bad you don't get the hex if only 1 person reports you.
People whining about dishonorable are pure gold

DutchSmurf · May 21, 2008, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Your example isn't great. I could easily spin it around. To me it is more like the majority think that going 75mph in a school zone is better because it gets you through faster and because going faster is more "cool". Meanwhile the local community thinks 25mph is better because that is what worked for a long time, and because they think going 75mph is bad for the entire area.

So using my example, yes that is where our disagreement lies.

Only in this case, the majority of the local community didn't think that the 25mph of your example was working. Most screamed for a change actually because people were crashing their cars all the time. Being more 'cool' is a bad argument anyway and not used in this thread. So you failed at spinning the example.

Red Sand · May 21, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

To me it is more like the majority think that going 75mph in a school zone is better because it gets you through faster and because going faster is more "cool". Meanwhile the local community thinks 25mph is better because that is what worked for a long time, and because they think going 75mph is bad for the entire area.

Your reversal doesn't hold water: no reasonable majority would advocate doing 75 through a school zone. It's hazardous to the health and welfare of members of the community. It's an undesirable behavior that would be dealt with by law enforcement.

Much like adding dishonorable deals with leavers. Take your speeding ticket for leaving, and take a license suspension for chronic leaving.

DreamWind · May 21, 2008, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Only in this case, the majority of the local community didn't think that the 25mph of your example was working. Most screamed for a change actually because people were crashing their cars all the time. Being more 'cool' is a bad argument anyway and not used in this thread. So you failed at spinning the example.

The problem is that there were relatively few complaints about 25mph (it was nice people liked it and the ways things should have been), but then the government (Anet) gave everybody a prize for going fast (glad points) then some people wanted to go 75mph (leaving). So Anet implemented a speed limit (dishonorable) even though the limit wasn't needed from the start.

Ok yea, this entire example really is stupid like I said earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Your reversal doesn't hold water: no reasonable majority would advocate doing 75 through a school zone.

You'd be amazed at some of the things people advocate. I think Ursan is completely destructive to the PvE game, but I'm guessing the "reasonable majority" want it to stay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

It's hazardous to the health and welfare of members of the community.

Which is irrelevent. (See my previous point). Many changes to the game have been hazardous to its health.

DutchSmurf · May 21, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is that there were relatively few complaints about 25mph (it was nice people liked it and the ways things should have been), but then the government (Anet) gave everybody a prize for going fast (glad points) then some people wanted to go 75mph (leaving). So Anet implemented a speed limit (dishonorable) even though the limit wasn't needed from the start.

Except for the fact that a couple miles away from that school there is a racetrack (TA) where you can get the same prize driving even faster then 75mph and doing more laps per hour (more glad points per hour if you know what you are doing). All you have to do is make a team, which shouldn't have to be too hard.
The problem starts when people want to drive through the city like it is the racetrack and then complain about the speed limit. Which this whole thread is about.

But enough of that stupid example. In my opinion, anyone that cares about glad points shouldn't be trying to farm them in RA anyway. Of course there are many stupid people in RA with all kinds of stupid builds, but that is the risk of playing in a random team. If you aren't willing to take the risk and actually play with those kind of people, then RA isn't for you.
I do agree at some points. The timer in RA is still far too long, 4 minutes or maybe even 3 is more then enough. Awarding gladpoints for RA isn't the smartest idea either. Maybe a 1k faction bonus for every 5 wins makes more sense. But, in the current situation, the Dishonorable hex is needed. That it is needed because of glad points doesn't make any difference. If I understand it correctly, DreamWind is more arguing against the gladpoints then against the hex.

DreamWind · May 21, 2008, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

But enough of that stupid example.

Yea that example sucked from the start. You basically said though that people can go to TA, which is true. But I pointed out problems with that earlier. TA can not serve the same purposes of RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

The timer in RA is still far too long, 4 minutes or maybe even 3 is more then enough. Awarding gladpoints for RA isn't the smartest idea either. Maybe a 1k faction bonus for every 5 wins makes more sense.

Agree with all of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

But, in the current situation, the Dishonorable hex is needed. That it is needed because of glad points doesn't make any difference. If I understand it correctly, DreamWind is more arguing against the gladpoints then against the hex.

To be honest, I don't think dishonorable is the "worst idea ever" like the OP. I just think it wasn't needed, and I thought some of the arguments in favor of it were bad. The only reason I brought up glad points is because dishonorable would not have been added if not for them, so I put them in the same category. They both changed RA.

Red Sonya · May 21, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Thing is in games like these majority usually rules and the minority opinion is just that and will always be that, just a subnote opinion of little an insignificant value. Fine to have them, but, really a waste of type.

Red Sand · May 21, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

It's hazardous to the health and welfare of members of the community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Which is irrelevent.

Nothing you have to say from this point on is of any value to me.

/waves

SuTiH · May 21, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

now people who play toucher/ele earth tanks/ mending stuff etc get glad titles because you can't rage on them anymore.
Which means they think they are good in this game, and they dont adjust their builds, they just play the same all the time...
usualy, when every1 rages on you when they see your build, after a while you should realise maybe your build aint that great, so you play something else. Which means you should improve after a while trying new builds etc
As you can see I just HATE the ***some bad word here

*** dishonorable update

pumpkin pie · May 22, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

why should you "rage" on other players?

there's a chat panel, type in your comments/advise and hit enter. i think that would be more useful then "raging"

I love the disnonorable update alot.

would like to refer rage quitters supporters to this thread

Zaris · May 22, 2008, 08:46 AM // 08:46

dishonorable is not the worst idea
anet had many bad ideas
this one is below lootscaling

Wish Swiftdeath · May 22, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

maybe if one person on you're team resigns a box pops up and you're asked to click yes or no

Not obstructive or anything just above the party bar or something (you can move it in options [interface])

Courage! · May 22, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

dishonored is good when i did RA i always got ppl leaving (mostly monks) and now i can get in a group and have a chance

SuTiH · May 22, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

why should you "rage" on other players?

there's a chat panel, type in your comments/advise and hit enter. i think that would be more useful then "raging"

I love the disnonorable update alot.

would like to refer rage quitters supporters to this thread

if you try to give them advice they just say 1 V 1 MY GUILD HALL I KILL or they just don't listen to you because they think their bar is good the way it is now because they actually get glad points with it now ><

dunky_g · May 22, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuTiH

if you try to give them advice they just say 1 V 1 MY GUILD HALL I KILL or they just don't listen to you because they think their bar is good the way it is now because they actually get glad points with it now ><

Sums up around 90% of the the GW community who think they are 'the shit', when there just 'shit'.

DreamWind · May 22, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sand

Nothing you have to say from this point on is of any value to me.

/waves

I clearly showed your point to be irrelevent, so now you are quitting? I expected more from you.

Just because something is hazardous to the health of the community or the game has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not the majority like it. The majority likes PLENTY of things that are destructive to the game. The main argument for dishonorable/glad points is that the majority likes it. I am simply pointing out that some things the majority like are actually terrible for Guild Wars. Whether or not the RA changes are part of that is what we are debating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Thing is in games like these majority usually rules and the minority opinion is just that and will always be that, just a subnote opinion of little an insignificant value. Fine to have them, but, really a waste of type.

The only legit argument made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaris

dishonorable is not the worst idea
anet had many bad ideas
this one is below lootscaling

It is below a lot of things. Dishonorable isn't near the worst update in the history of Guild Wars. I just think changing RA to a farming area, then needing another update to patch the previous change (which arguably wasn't needed even after the change) is a bad idea, especially when there was relatively few problems to begin with.